The Kentroversy Papers: Spiritual and Astrotheological Motifs Related To Light

The Kentroversy Papers: Spiritual and Astrotheological Motifs Related To Light
This is a very interesting piece on Astrology and Astrotheology, written to examine the ever present quest for light in modern religion. The interesting connection that I find in this is something brought up by the Widow’s Son the other day on the true meaning of Lucifer, as mentioned in Brother Pike’s Moral’s and Dogma.

In one reference on the Kentroversy piece, reference is made of the 32nd degree in Scottish Rite Freemasonry, where the Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret is given the secret to religion as being the Sun, but in referencing Morals and Dogma, this connection is not accurate.

Overlooking this error, the Kentroversy Papers presents the scholarly idea of a landscape of the modern religions that centers on the idea that the gospels and holy-days from the Catholic church center around an astrological dance of the stars and constellations, suggesting that:

“After the Last Supper, Jesus is betrayed by Judas, who represents Scorpio, in the month of October. Judas was said to have betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, which represent the thirty days of the average monthly interval, and the increasing darkness as the Sun makes its’ way to the Winter Solstice in the third week of December.

Silver here is a dead giveaway, because silver is the metal associated with the Moon, and thus, darkness. If the reader would care to take note, the Moon looks like a silver coin hanging in the nighttime sky, just as the Sun looks like a golden coin hanging in the daytime sky. To provide further evidence of this symbolism — gold is associated with the Sun, and thus, solar energy, and the light of day; and silver is associated with lunar energy, and the dark of night.”

This comparison is illustrated around the painting of the Last Supper By Leonardo Da Vinci, which, is suggested, represents the 4 seasons centered on the Sun (Jesus). It makes for an interesting connection.

In reading this, I was drawn to the parallel of The Widow’s Son piece on the present day biblical translation and interpretation of the name Lucifer, often identified as “the devil”. Citing material from, the Widos’s Son presents the case for how the name Lucifer has been changed from a “Light-Bringer” to another identification for Satan Misguiding many readers of the bibl and other texts.

So in merging the thoughts, the early astrotheolgical view likely included the likes of Lucifer in it’s pantheon of “Sol Invictius” or a deliverer of the Sun God, that Lucifer in an older tradition, Perhaps Helios, who was(is) the bringer of light.

So what does that mean to masons? Like earlier posts, it’s purpose and meaning is to open another window of light to investigate the meanings of Masonry. And with investigation, there may come conclusions that are contrary to what you may know, theologically, sociologically, and emotionally. Freemasonry has many levels, and as a mystery school, transcends linear thought to encompass multiple levels in it’s ever presencent quest for light.

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~ by Greg on February 16, 2006.

29 Responses to “The Kentroversy Papers: Spiritual and Astrotheological Motifs Related To Light”

  1. In Solar myths down through the ages, there is often a “lesser light” foretelling (or sometimes said to be attempting to rival) the arrival of the Sun or Sun-God. This Light may be called Lucifer, Prometheus, or simply the Bright and Morning Star.

    These aren’t just myths. You can see the Eternal and Universal re-enactment of this myth on a clear night. Watch for the arrival of the star Sirius before dawn, or after dusk, depending on the time of year.

    The star Sirius has often said to be the Blazing Star of Freemasonry. It was probably the Star of Bethlehem. Legends and myths abound regarding the Dog Star, Sirius.


    The Widow’s Son
    The Burning Taper

  2. Thank you for your kind remarks on my writing, and my piece on LIGHT MOTIFS in particular. Regarding your comment that my statement that “Men who reach the 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry are told, among other things, that Jesus Christ is the S-U-N of God. Jesus Christ is the S-U-N of God. The sun in the sky, is what they are talking about.” is inaccurate, actually is a reference to what ESOTERIC information that is given to select people who attain the 32nd degree.

    For confirmation of my comment, one needs to study the Babylon and Egypt Mystery School system, where the true nature of the mythology behind global religions is given.

    I would like to direct you to the writings of author/researcher TONY BUSHBY for confirmation of my information as truth.

    Joshua Books – Tony Bushby author’s homepage

    This type of material is NOT going to be found in EXOTERIC books on Freemasonry. I was also told this was true by a deceased family member, who was a 33rd degree.

  3. All of the esoteric-freemason-efforts in the world is from the darkest pits of hell!

    How dare you and your cohorts even mention THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF in your blasphemous ramblings…only mention His Name when you seek HIM…The True Illumined Light!…seek Him and Him only for any light…seek Him, His Church, His Gospels, His Churchs’ Traditions…seek His Forgiveness, His Mercy, His Love, His Compassion…seek Repentence through HIM…Jesus Christ, son Of The Father, Promiser Of The Holy Spirit…Father, Son, Holy Spirit…The-Three-In-One and The-One-In-Three…He Who Is Unending…Infinate…Without-Begining-Without-End…SEEK THIS…and you shall receive the Unending Light…you will receive Peace, Happiness, a sense of being laid back like you’ve never experienced…SEEK this Truth…and all truthful realities will follow! May The Ruler Of All, God Almighty Himself, Creator Of The Heavens And The Earth, Creator Of Mankind, every human being, Whom He Made In HIS Image, for you are God’s Child, May he Have Mercy On You And Bless You!

  4. Hey Gary,

    Guess what, Jesus Christ would probably rather hang out with us Freemasons than you Fundamentalist right-wing wacko’s any day.

    May Lord Mithras bless you.

  5. Hey Patriotic Mason!

    Guess What!? I am neither a Fundamentalist nor a right-winger wacko!


    …That has received the Mercy, Love, Compassion, and Light of Jesus Christ, The Son Of The Living God, The Ruler Of All!…The Creator Of All!…One with The Father and The Holy Spirit, The Most Holy Trinity…The One True God who has shattered and obliterated the false gods!…The Resurrection Of Christ DESTROYED death…death received a Body, and it beheld The Giver Of Life And Light!…the gates of Hell where blown off their hinges by The Rushing Of The Holy Wind Of The Resurrection!…the Devil and the demons being driven out by the Presence of Jesus Christ who freed the Captives of Hades and entered into Heavens Realm where all tears are wiped away by a Gentle Hand, The Hand Of He Who Breathed Life Into All…He…The Lord God Almighty!

  6. Please Patriotic Mason excuse the break in this dialouge.

    To Continue…

    Second, I am a Free Citizen of The American Republic…not a right-wing NeoCon Republican…not a left-wing Extremist Democrat…not a party…but a Citizen…a Citizen who seeks a balance between the Government of We The People and Religious Expression in The Face of The Nation…a Nation founded by falliable men who had infalliable religious hearts and minds…men who seeking Guidiance From The Lord Almighty, established a Constitutional Republic that would be Free…Free as only failing men could create…Free as would direct these men to seek after The Lord God in finding Truth…Truth that is Without Begining and Without End…Truth that is Found In The Light Of Him Who Created The Unending Light…and ‘through a glass darkly’ did these men Enlightened By The Truth Of The Creator…thus create By Him…A Free Constitutional Republic.

  7. Again…please excuse another break in dialouge.

    Thirdly, Jesus Christ is LOVE, and will sit at any table, be that of a right-wing wacko or left-wing wacko…be that with a tax-collector or a harlot…be that with you or me…THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST IS INCARNATE AND IS FOUND IN HIS HOLY LIGHT…a Light that envelopes all people…a peaceful and comforting Light that is not found in mans philosophical minds of sincere searching…but in sincere seeking of Gods Truths…we all must seek This Truth…we all stumble and fail…but HIS LOVE lifts you up…

    …do fall down, and seek His lifting Hand, that is LOVE, LIGHT, AND LIFE.

    …and this LOVE will show the darkness of that lord mithras…and you’ll find it to be a demon that is already driven out by The Holy Resurrection Of Christ Jesus…The Son Of The Living God…remember the words of the Centurion at the foot of The Holy Cross…remember…

  8. Gary,

    Eris is smiling upon you, buddy. You’re basking in Her Divine Presence.

    Widow’s Son
    The Burning Taper

    PS: Oh, by the way, Gary… all those founders of our nation, calling upon God — Freemasons, mostly.

  9. Widow’s Son,

    I am not basking in eris’ so called divine presence and smiles…that is just part of the spiritual warfare that is around all of us, all of mankind…the warfare between Gods’ All Good and the Devils’ all evil.

    Saint Michael The Archangel, Commander Of The Heavenly Armies, who at Gods’ command, cast Satan and the fallen angels out of Heaven, said to the evil one, “May God Rebuke You!…and in this spiritual war…May God Rebuke this evil…for The Lord God Almighty is the shatterer of the false gods whom you mention…you mention names…wherein behind the mask of these names are demons, the fallen angels…these demons are liars commanded the The Evil One, Satan, Lucifer, The Dragon…this enemy of God Almighty knows his and the demons final home…Hell, where the worm consumeth and fires burn unquenchably, where there is gnashing of teeth and wailing, where it is dark and those there cannot see around them, where PAIN is forever, eternal, and infinate…seek not these false gods, for they have already fallen and want to drag you down with them…seek after the Truth, Love, Peace, Eternal Bliss and Happiness that is The Lord GOD Almighty, He who created and loves you…He knows your every fiber, who YOU are, for you are made in His Image and Likeness…SEEK HIS LIGHT…not the dark light of these false gods (demons)…where is their LOVE, PEACE, TRUTH, LIFE, LIGHT, ETERNAL BLISS AND HAPPINESS?!…they offer none of these attributes, no matter how much they LIE…lie to you and other wiccans, new agers, freemasons, and those seeking only the truths of the above mentioned attributes…you are being lied to, decieved, and tricked…and being of the fallen humantiy, it is only normal, but shake the dust from you eyes, ears, hearts, and minds, ask Mercy from He who created you…ask for this Mercy…ask for a clear heart and mind…ask for a clear and clean spirit within you…for the Lord GOD, Creator Of All will hear you…and you will know the answer when it comes about…read the Psalms of The Prophet and King, Saint David…read these Psalms and know the Way Of GOD…seek His Enlightenment…The True Light shines beyond the Cosmos…This Uncreated Light IS!…The Light Of The Burning Bush on Mount Sinai…The Light Of Elijahs spiritual battle with the worshippers of Bael…The Light In The Night Of Nativity Of Christ, GOD Incarnate…The Light Of The Transfiguration Of Jesus, thus revealing HIS Fullness…The Light Of The Resurrection Of GOD Made Man, The Word Made Flesh, The Light Of The Ascension Of Our Lord Jesus Into Heaven, THE LIGHT OF THE SECOND COMING OF THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, TO JUDGE ALL MANKIND, THE FEARFUL AND DREADFUL JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST…the Light of which ALL knees will bow and ALL heads lowered, acknowledging that CHRIST IS KING!, THAT HE IS LORD OF LORDS!, GOD OF GODS!, KING OF KINGS!, AND LORD OF HOSTS!…on that day every creature made by the Hands Of GOD, man and his mate woman, Angels, and demons will tremble with FEAR OF GOD, and acknowledge THE TRUE LIGHT OF GOD!…which is LOVE, LIGHT, and LIFE…

    …Seek this Light, and you’ll receive This Truth…and will feel The Peaceful Love Of He Who IS.

  10. Gary,
    Are these the bible’s words or your words? I just did a dearch in the bible for “Saint Michael The Archangel” and found no match, so my question to you is are you making these things up?

    If the light is everywhere, even beyond the cosmos, then it’s within you too, right?

  11. Widow’s Son,

    I almost forgot…

    …you know, you are right about the Founders of This American Republic…

    …alot of them were Freemason, not all, but many were…

    …they to were men seeking after truth…

    …they were men who came from a Christian background and upbringing…

    …they were men who either came from a Christian nation, Britian, or were born of parents or of grandparents who came from England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Germany, Holland, the various Lands of France, and or other Lands where the Christian Faith had been long established…

    …they were men who applied their Christian upbringing to search for an ideal government…

    …they were men who had falliable ways as we all do, but their search for an ideal government, their seeking Guidance from The Lord Almighty, all their sincere efforts applied, were of an infalliable seeking…seeking after Truths…

    …these men, many of whom were Freemasons, sought after Divine Providence Of Him, THE LORD GOD in their sincere and honest search for the ideal government…

    …these men, falliable and yet sincere…applied honest help from THE ALMIGHTY, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, OF THE UNCREATED AND UNENDING LIGHT…

    …these men, falliable and yet sincere…applied their ideas of Freemasonry to their searching of the ideal government…an honest effort indeed…but a falliable mistake because Freemasonry is falliable and riddled with mans’ philosophical ideals, not with GODS INFALLIABLITY…

    …these men, searched for infalliablity…found it through GOD…and yet, could not find it in Freemasonry…

    …these men are like all of us…

    …seeking and searching…

    …but WE ALL must find the infalliable Truths Of GOD…

    …not the falliable truths of Freemasonry.

  12. Mr Masonic Traveler,

    Which came first the Bible or the Church?

    What sort of Bible search are you using? what are its source? and remember, in various editions of The Holy Bible, the name Michael may only appear.

    Saint Michael is mentioned in the Old Testament and New Testaments, along with the various historical writings of the Jewish People, and mentioned in the writings of the Early Church, The Early Church Fathers…you know the men, who by the Guidiance and Power of The Holy Spirit placed in order The Holy Bible which Christendom uses to this day…even the most fundamentlist Evangelical Protestant acknowledges this truth, and The Roman Catholic Christian Church, and the various Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches proclaim this truth…which would be echoed not only by those religious people of Judaism, but by the Muslims’ in the world…at least the religious Jews and Muslims honor the Old Testament and the Truths contained within…and the knowledge of the presence of not only The Archangel Michael, but also Gabriel and Raphael, and in the various religious writings of the Jews, Chrisitians, and Muslims, there are four other Archangels mentioned, along with Cheribum, Serephim, Angels to guard and watch over all, the Angels who along with Saint Michael cast Satan and the fallen angels out of Heaven, and choirs of Angels who sing and rejoice in Heaven.

    And to answer a part of your question…NO!…I am not making these things up…is this your usual response to those that might disagree with you!? You seem very scholarly minded. You seem very sincere and staunch on your thoughts and ideals. A respectful question to you…really…what is you knowledge of Christian history, the history of ALL Christendom, not just White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant Christianity…but the whole spectrum of all Christian history, history of the Roman Catholic Christian Church, and the various Eastern Christian Churches…Assyrian, Chaldean, Greek, Coptic, Ethiopian, Russian, Balkan, Armenian, Georgian, Nestorians in Central Asia, and Arab Churches?…I ask this question with upmost respect…and what is your knowledge of the history of Holy Writ?…of its formation, the various translations down thru the ages, of the attempts to additions and the excluding of certain books?

    Now…about your question regarding the Unending and Uncreated Light Of He Who Created All That Is Seen And Unseen…GODS Holy Light shines everywhere, even beyond the Cosmos…which He did create…this Light shines everywhere…but our senses are darkened by our own arrogance a result of the fall, and we (all mankind…those who believe and those who don’t) are constantly lied to by the Enemy. In his darkened being and those of the demons, they wish to deceive, lie, and DESTROY all mankind and drag huamnity down to death and darkness with them…their deception is not based on Truth, Love, Light, Peace, and Mercy…it is based on HATE, ENVY, DESTRUCTION OF EVERYTHING, WAILING AND PAIN, DEATH, PITCH BLACKNESS, AND JUST AGAIN PLAIN HATEFUL HATE…so we, all mankind, is confused and blinded to the clearness of the Light…but our eyes, hearts, minds, and souls can be opened if you will, by The Gentle Hand Of GOD, who will show us His Love, and reveal to us His Light and Life.

  13. The search was on KJV, my concern for what you post a “fact” is conjectual, depending on your citation source. Your right, there are many versions of the bible, and many translations. But your reference to “Saint Michael The Archangel” is neither in the KJV or the NIV. So which are you quoting from?

    I’ll keep this simple. I AM open to censorshiop, and I’d like the posts to stick to the topic, and not rant on what you say is scriptural. Stick to the topic or I’ll edit the posts.

    In your reply above, you didn’t answer the question. Is the light within you too, or merely in everything else?

  14. Gary,

    Jesus is not god. Mary wasn’t a virgin, there was no world-wide flood, Jehovah was only one of 70 of the son’s of EL, the Father of Jehovah, and even El and his “consort” Asherah were created by an unknown creator according to the Book of Genesis and the ancient Semetic texts found in Ugarit.

    Sorry, but you’re completely full of shit.

    PS. Donkey’s don’t talk either.

  15. Masonic Traveler,

    This dialouge is very interesting.

    Throughout the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic world, Michael is refered to as The Archangel, The Commander of The Heavenly Armies, Leader of The Bodiless Host, and so on…in Holy Writ, he is refered to as “The Archangel Michael’, it is in Christendom that the title “Saint” is applied. Michael is also refered to as the Defender of Israel (not the state, but the Israelite People of Old). It is in the monotheistic faiths from the Holy Land that Michael is honored and remembered by many names. In the English speaking WASP-Zionist world such titles seems to be ignored and forgotten…as cold and dry as the Anglo-Saxon mindset is in relation to religion…still the mean-spirited Puritan way of thinking persist.

    With the risk of sounding mean, bu not meaning too…the KJV didn’t fall out of the sky as many honest sincere Protestant Christians feel…King James was not a holy man, a falliable man he was, who if memory serves me correctly commited many brutal barbaric acts against the Irish Catholic Chrisitians and other Catholic Christians in The British Realm…as there were many Catholic Christians commiting horrific violence against the Protestant Christians…sad that Christians would kill Christians isn’t it?…do forgive for straying on your careful to the point blog.

    So, one must apply the culture of the world around the religions of the world, in this case, Christendom, Islam, and Judiom, we must look into the Traditions of these closely related Faiths and how they recognize elements of their beliefs both in their Holy Books and Holy Traditions. The Holy Books are not the only sources to the understanding and study of these Faiths…Sola Scriptura does not apply to the understanding of, study of, and definitions of these Faiths, their doctrines and dogmas, and the their own understanding of themselves. So many American Christians rely soley on the Holy Bible for their worldview, both in politics and religion, and this is short-sightedness, once a sincere Protestant told me that only the U.S., the U.K., and Israel are the only peaceful (Godly) nations in the world…basing this soley on Sola Scriptura and individual interpretations…the worldview of WASP-KJVness in light of the present and historical world situation is as you would say intolerant…

    And I can understand the need to moderate and control the flow of dialouge here on this blog…but to come across as intolerant of others thought process is a bit harsh when accusing them from straying or “ranting” of their understanding of Scriptures. I did answer your question on “the Light within”…I am a sinner, filthy as rags Christian, that the Light of Christ shines.

    Thank you for you dialouge and blog.

  16. Gary,
    I agree with what you are saying, but in earlier posts, you were specific to mention the Christian “God” and the Christian “Jesus”, and the 2 most prominent texts about these things are the King James Version bible and the New International Version KJV and NIV respectively. Nowhere in either of these texts is there a direct mention to the “Archangel Michael”, or “Commander of The Heavenly Armies”, they don’t exist in the bible as such, so if your saying “it’s in the bible, it’s not. Your argument is flawed, whether or not it’s a “Zionist WASP” translation.

    One of the conversations we’ve had here is that the bible is not a literal text, that it has come down to us through the hands of man, and is therefore open to interpretation. One of the things Freemasonry teaches is to seek light, but light is not the faith of a myriad of religions, but to understand our own faiths through other faiths. God exists to all people in different ways, and Freemasonry espouses understanding that. But again, this seems a contradictory statement to some things you posted here earlier. Is that how you really feel?

    I appreciate your understanding on the posts here, and I appreciate your sticking to the topic from this post originally.

  17. To Masonic Traveler,

    I must respond to the patriotic_mason and “its” last comment…


    …you are a bit defensive and harsh and sticking to only your understanding of things…

    …dosesn’t this go against what your “Brother” Masonic Traveler has said of Freemasonry, enspousing understanding and the teaching to seek ‘light’ and to understand other Faiths along with the exsistance of GOD…

    …you seem to fail at what Freemasonry encourages; tolerance, understanding, seeking out, brotherhood, community, light…

    …are you really a Freemason?…

    …or a person who worships himself…thus, making yourself a god…do you worship you own opinions and not that of your “Brothers” and their encouragement to be understanding, loving, fraternal, a sense of community?…

    …you seem to defy not only Freemasonry but humanity itself by being so harsh in your statements about “fecal matter”…such attacks does not seem in accordance with ‘brotherhood’ of mankind…you seem rather anti-Christian-Jewish-Islamic in your denials…isn’t Freemasonry about tolerance, especially involving the monotheistic beliefs of the Holy Land?…why so hateful in your attacks and accusing me of being full of doo-doo?…rather harsh from someone who calls himself “patriotic_mason”…if you patriotism is about and directed toward the American Constitutional Republic Way, then haven’t you violated what our nation stands for?…freedom of expression and religious beliefs?…is your patriotism as indicated in your name represenative of the strength of that word?…the very power of it’s definition weighs heavily these days, thinking of the state that our union is in, and how people perceive ‘patriotism’…you do not represent that word well it seems to me…I wore the uniforms of the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Army for over eleven years, serving our Dear Republic and protecting our Dear Citizens…and we were taught to not misrepresent that honorable uniform that is a symbol of Our Dear American Republic…and I recommend to you to be careful of how you represent yourself in the name ‘patriotic_mason’…not only for America but the fraternal order that you seem to be a member of…

    …you seem to be a man of of searching…looking into history…but yet in your statement, you represent yourself as small-minded, intolerant, against the beliefs of others, and just plain hateful!…especially when telling me that I “was full of shit”…

    …it seems to me that the only shit is that which falls from you hateful mind and in which you are standing in…the smell blinds your eyes, heart, mind, spirit, and hands!…step out of the darkness of this ‘excrement’…and into the ‘light’ of being…well, civil…remember community and brotherhood…

    …it is interesting communicating with you patriotic mason.

    These dialouges are rather interesting and fired with emotion and belief…

    …Masonic Traveler…you have opened up channels for communication between ideals.

    …thank you for this allowance of time and space on your blog.

    The Christian, a sinner and filthy as rags, and rather ignorant on many things.

  18. Now A Dialouge With You, Masonic Traveler.

    Michael does exsist in the Old and New Testements…he is the Archangel mentioned along with Gabriel and Raphael…

    …and the hateful and cold WASP-Zionist did NOT ‘fine tune’ Holy Scriptures, they did however add a beautiful way of presenting Holy Writ in the Elizabethan Tounge of the English Language…the KJV and NIV of the modern English speaking world is not Sola-Authoritive in “Bible” matters…nor is Evangelical Protestant Christianity…their love of God and His Word, their study and dedication of it, resulting in a rich steepedness is to be greatly commended…but their Sola Scriptura definitions do not speak for Christendom, as history will attest, there are two other groups in Christendom…Roman Catholic Christianity and the Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches…their place in Christian history goes back much further…actually to the beginning of the Christian Faith…their histories and understanding and definition of the Faith of Jesus Christ is very useful to discovering this Ancient Faith…start at the begining from those who wrote…not from those today who write about those who wrote…that is like asking the new neighbor on the block to tell of the origins of each family and house in the neighborhood…instead ask the little old lady down the street whom everyone loves because of her love for the kids up and down the street and the good spaghetti she fixes…and the good wine she makes!…this ‘grandmother’ will tell you ‘a story’!

    Now on to the discussion about the ‘literal text’ of The Holy Bible…

    …The Christian Faith, and for that matter, Judaism teaches that The Holy Spirit Of The Lord GOD guided the hands of those who transcribed The Word Of GOD. There is no dispute within Christendom and Judiom on this. Are there those within these to great faiths that question?…yes…but they are not the ‘spokesman’ for these faiths. These faiths and the religious belief of their adhearers have answered with an overwhelming “This is The Word Of God”…Moses, David, Joshua, Nehimiah, Ezekiel, Micah, The Maccabees, John, Luke, Jude, Clement, Polycarp, John Chrysostom, Cyprian of Carthage, Patrick, Sylvester, Anthony The Great, Gregory The Great, Basil, Athanasius, and the list goes on and on, from the early Church thru today…look at the Christian Churches based out of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Constantinople, Pec, Moscow, Tblisi, Yeravan, Toledo…look into these ancient Christian centers…where Christianity blossomed in the changelessness of faith, belief, doctrine, and correct teaching…again guided and confirmed each time by The Holy Spirit Of GOD, Triune and One, Real and Knowable, Alive and Near, Soft as Silence, and Powerful in Storm Abounding, Evident in Creation, and Sensed in All!…thats right Masonic Traveler…GOD is real, His Church is real, His Word is real…mans philisophical search is honest and sincere, but to become ‘real with GOD’…we all must be children…for innocence and purity of heart sees GOD…think of the children with Jesus Christ, GOD Incarnate, sitting with the children on that sunny dewy morning…think of that gentleness, that love, that happiness felt by them as they beheld Him!…and it is He that guided those who wrote The Holy Scriptures, HE WHO IS.

    It is not what I feel, it is the Truth of Holy Writ and Holy Church that is.

    There are those that dispute this Truth…Honest and Humble Truth…but their disputes are dishonest and not humble…look for the hate and the malice in their ramblings…their unending effort to discredit Truth…and for what?…their OWN OPINIONS, their worshipping of themselves, cold and isolated…searching, yes!…sincere and crying out?…yes!…but to themselves alone and out to disbelieve all but their ownselves…making themselve to be god and the center of all…these disputers are like everyone else…searching for an answer…but their way is destructive, hateful, mean-spirited…darkened by the enemy of GOD, The Evil One…darkened by their own ‘shutter of the eyes’…only needing to open their eyes to The Light…and find The Truth and The Way…to see as the children that sat on the lap of The Creator And Ruler Of All.

  19. Gary,

    I am a Deist. Do you know what that is? That means that I recognize that ALL revealed religions are part and parcial of the great world group mind of mythology. The only difference between Jesus and Mithras is that Jesus has more living followers.

    That’s it.

    I believe in tolerance. I have no problems with Christians who practice the same in word and deed. However, I have no tolerance for those who refuse to allow others to believe that their gods are just as great as your own. You stated that Mithras was “dark” and actually a “demon” instead of a god. Now how would you like it if I called Jesus a dark god of the underworld? Not very nice, huh? Mithras is just as much god as Jesus, Zeus, Dionysis, Osiris, Jupiter, Ahura Mazda, Krishna, or any other deity around the world. I have a great fascination with revealed religions, and respect much of what they believe and worship. However, it is the religious intolerants, the fanatics if you will, who refuse to accept the gods of other people and lands, that I find intolerable.

    People like you Gary, who insist on nailing the Ten Commandments on my local courthouse wall, so that I can be reminded that Christianity is virtually the US National Religion. So that I can have your religious beliefs shoved down my throat every time I go to the post office to pick up my mail. Yeah Gary, that sounds just like what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they bled and died for this country.

    You call your self an American Patriot?

    America can only be the “land of the free” when it ceases to sponsor Christianity as it’s de facto state religion. We can only be an example to the Muslim world when we show that we are not going to insist that they nail the Ten Commandments in every damn federal building in Iraq. Or that we’re going to convert every Mosque into a Southern Baptist seminary.

    Do you think you could be open minded enough to allow all men to worship as they will, without consigning them to hell at the same time? Is that even possible for a fundamentalist like yourself?

    Prove to me your not just another narrow minded bigot, hiding under the rags of Jesus?

  20. Patriotic Mason,

    Again, making assumptions…

    …for the record, I am not a Fundamentalist, nor a Evangelical Protestant…

    …I never recalled having a discussion about nailing the Ten Commandments, which is a Jewish document, that Christians adhere to, and even the educated Muslim understands and honors…in fact I never nailed any Ten Commandments to any Public/Government facility…and truth be known…I not sure that I would agree to do such a thing…there is a balance in Our Constitutional Republic and the “open” expression of religious belief on “neutral” government funded buildings.

    …and no, I don’t think that Christianity is the U.S. National Religion. Yes, Our Dear Republic was founded by men whose background was to some deree Christian, and the society in which they lived was for the most part Christian. And also, most Euro, Afro, and Hispanic people in America have identified themselves as Christians.

    …I haven’t shoved Christianity down your throat either, only been discussing it with much vigor.

    Will Continue…

  21. Do excuse the break in this dialouge.

    To continue discussion with Patriotic Mason.

    …with much vigor…and DEFENSE…defense against yours and others references of Jesus, The Son Of The Living GOD…against your “final conclusion” that I “was full of shit” in regards to my belief in the Christian Faith…DEFENSE WHEN ATTACKED…this is fair.

    …I never consigned anyone to Hell in these dialouges…that is left to the Judgement Seat Of Christ Himself on that Great And Fearful Day. I did however refer to The Evil One, The Liar, The Dragon, The Deciever, and all his cohorted demons that are bound to the eternal death of hell…and how they want to drag all of us down with them. I mentioned that their lies and deciet are from the darkest pits of Hell…their lies manifested through mankinds worship of mankind. I never assigned any non-Christian to Hell in these talks…infact, I CANNOT do so!…ever…that is left to GOD alone…infact, I imagine that there are people of other faiths that have and will receive GODS Mercy on such matters…I on the other hand will have to account for so much, being that I am a sinful wretch.

    Again…more to follow…

  22. I apologize for the continued breaks.

    Continuing on with Patriotic Mason.

    …and the fact that I am a Christian, I will have much responsiblity to account for, for my Hope is in The Lord, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    …your questioning me on my patriotism?!…how dare you make such an assumption…yes…I did question ‘on how you presented yourself with such a powerful word; patriot…a word very dear to all of us Americans, especially in these times of Our Nations history…but to outright question my patriotism!…your assuming that I lack patriotism is a very ignorant statement and completely without any foundation!…your statement smells of the fecal matter that you accused me of being full of…however, look on the bottom of your shoes…or better yet…the tips of your fingers and the keys you typed to engage in this healthy dialouge.

    More to follow…

  23. Onward in talks with Patriotic Mason.

    …My patriotism, where I am prone to falliable mistakes and dumbass fumbles…my patriotism is not in question!…I HAVE serve Our Republic, Our Constitution, Our Citizenry, and Our Fallen Military Members from past wars!…I Have worn the Uniform of Our Beloved Land for over eleven years!…Our Air Force!…Our Army National Guard!…and Our Army!…I served during the Gulf War of ’91 and in Operation Noble Eagle, the homeland defense operation following September ’01…I served stateside and overseas…I served in military exersises with Australian, Japanese, Korean, British, and Canadian Forces…so…please sir DO NOT question my Patriotism to Our American Republic!…thank you, sir.

    Again, additional thoughts to follow…

  24. Gary,

    Great. Three posts about how you are a Patriot and a christian wretch.

    How about addressing my issues of tolerance for all faiths, and of being respectful enough to acknowledge that other gods are just as important to their various believers as yours is to you?

  25. Continuing ‘The Vigor Talks’ With Patriotic Mason.

    You know PatMas…while we are full of piss, vinegar, and emotions…this is a healthy fun dialouge! What do you think?!

    I do apologize for the prolonged absence from the earlier entries.

    Those three blogs were not my ‘attaboy’ to myself on Patriotism and my belief in Christ…they were defensive moves against your slanderous attacks on my patriotism (which, I’m sure needs some sharping and improvements) and the comments on my being a Christian were certainly not of a bragging nature…just my statement of faith if you will…my communicating of ideals is quite flawed being that my education is rather limited, and if you feel insulted in these talks…please forgive me…now I will not apologize when I defend my thoughts and ideals and self…on the contrary good sir…I will defend as is appropriate…you exersise this tactic quite often and freely…at times resulting in harsh intolerant statements that are just abusive in tone.

    Now on to your request…

    …it must be admitted that Christians, be they Roman Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox have been intolerant and insensitive to others and their religious beliefs, and even amongst themselves…such is the nature of all peoples and their belief systems…it isn’t just isolated to Christians you know…history tells of others’ intolerances…Hindus against Muslims…Jews against Christians, Christians against Jews and Muslims, Aminist against Christians, Buddhist against Hindus, Sikhs against Hindus and Muslims, and Muslims against Christians, Buddhist, Jews, and Aminist…sad is the nature of all mankind…

    …and yet each of the worlds great religions offer so much in the way of hope, understanding what everthing is about, in some instances peace and love…

    …and many great men and women in each faith have demonstrated these and other honorable characteristics of their beliefs…

    …and better is the world as the result of it…

    …now you say and imply that I do not have a tolerance towards other religions, and their gods, and those who believe in them…mmm???…

    …my responses in previous posts were defensive (of which I will not apologize) in nature against the misuse and disrespect of the name of the Son Of The Living GOD, Jesus Christ, and the referencing to and of His character in world myths, cults, and religions which were posted by you and others on this Blog…(and please understand, in my opinion this is a rather healthy and powerful dialouge which has taken place!)…but to say that Christ is actually ‘this’ or ‘that’ in accordance to these myths and cults is to a Christian much blasphemy…and quite intolerant and insulting…something which is a theme to you and others in Freemasonry…tolerance and brotherhood of man… which is a good and sought after goal…while believers in various faiths fail at this, their religious doctrine does sometime pronounce them…it is in all men that we are inheritantly religious, seeking to worship, seeking after answers to life and its mysteries (I highly recommend a book that Orthodox Christians read, it’s called “Our Orthodox Christian Faith”, which was authored by Athanasios S. Frangopoulos…it is a very tolerant book P.M., just a plain explination of the Orthodox Christian Faith)…to continue…it’s all in us, to be religious, and the various religions around the world sincerely attempt to answer a myriad of questions that mankind has asked since the begining of all things…

    …please excuse me in this break P.M….responsibilities elsewhere…

    …Good Dialouge, Man!, good dialouge!

  26. Gary,

    Have you taken a break from the orthodox theology long enough to study out the various world-myths, to determine for yourself whether there actually is a corrolation between Jesus and other son-of-god myths?

  27. To Masonic Traveler and Patriotic Mason,

    Please excuse the prolonged absence to this discourse. Responsibilities elsewhere warranted my being away. I hope that this rather healthy and inflaming dialouge will continue to stir up the piss and vinegar in both PatMas and myself, and maybe a few others.

    An added note here, it’s here in The American Republic could such a discusion take place with a sense of Freedom and security, a Land where speech is supposed to be guaranteed and encouraged…which makes for a healthy Constitutional Republic…with blood flowing through the veins of the Bill Of Rights…and that document alive and well!

    In response to PatMas’ last entry…to inquire on other faiths does not require a break from ones’ own. As to the corolation between Jesus Christ and as you say ‘other son of god myths’…with an inherant religious belief in all humankind there has always been an anticipation of “the coming of a Messiah”, an innate knowledge that has been planted and present since the begining of all things…same as the universal knowing of a “supreme being” in all peoples…a sense of God himself, and the communion between God and His creation…a communion through an “Incarnation” and “Manifistation” of The Ruler and Creator of All…this knowledge again being in all peoples. It is, however, through mans own mind that myths and gods other than He Who Is comes about, ‘through a glass darkley’ and mans haughty self image are these myths and gods made about…and being that there are in the spiritual world two sides…good and evil…evil wishes to blind good in humanity, and distort the mind of peoples to bend in upon themselves…to worship themselves and their opinions and arrogance of ideals about ‘what is’…but all the while, there is in mankind, a knowledge of God and His Incarnation.

    Thank you again Patriotic Mason and MasTrav for the patience in this break in dialouge, and hoping that this will continue in the coming days.

    Gary, a weak and fumbling…shall I say it?…Christian.

    And on the lighter side…what is brown and sounds like a bell?

  28. Patriotic Mason…

    …shall we continue with this often broken dialouge…again…please excuse my often extended absences…obligations to attend to…

    …what is your faith?…belief?…your religious background?…a Buddhist?…agnostic?…Jew?…Christian?…atheist?…and if I may?…why the anger against Christendom?…or just a part of Christendom?…sometimes Christians can be labeled as “Gods retarded children”…for instance Protestants’ and their insistance that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians, and that American Christianity is the original form, and that Catholicism is a form of paganism, Babylonism, idol worshipers…see…even Christians aggrivate the fire out of other Christians…

    …what brought you into Freemasonry and its esoteric teachings?

    …looking foward to the continuation of this piss and vinegar dialouge.

  29. Hey Patriotic Mason…

    …where are you!?

    you views are interesting…

    …this dialouge needs more of your input.

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